Curse

Patrograd · Apr 02, 2006, 06:20 PM // 18:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rey Lentless

Knockdowns are ok right now and enough reason to use hammers. In a month, they won't have the same value. Instead of giving your opinion based on what top guilds uses, and inferring balance by 'so and so uses X, so and so is good.. so X is good', why don't you read the thread.

Lol

I was merely suggesting as you clearly have never played against a top class hammer warrior, and have absolutely no apparent idea of how they are supposed to be used, that you should go into observer mode and see one in action.

Yes mesmers are better at pure disruption, but inbetween a mesmers disruption he isnt doing anything, whereas in between a hammer warriors disruption he is hitting things very hard indeed, because he has the highest base DPS in the game, a DPS that you want to further boost. Its madness.

Once again, I have read the thread, and you are simply wrong. Of all the things in the game that could use a buff, hammer warriors are a long, long way down the list.

You really believe that one skill from factions will kill knockdowns? In a disruption heavy meta game where it is bloody hard to get off any sort of skill with a cast time? Ok, if thats your opinion, fair enough, we will just have to agree to disagree as this isnt going anywhere.

super dooper · Apr 02, 2006, 07:11 PM // 19:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rey Lentless

Knockdowns are ok right now and enough reason to use hammers. In a month, they won't have the same value.

i think it's a little early to say that one skill (a ward, mind you), is going to stop knockdowns or make them less valuable. i just fail to see where people are coming from saying that hammers need an attack speed buff (and the guy that said they should match that of a sword or axe is insane).

i know i'm just repeating what others have said here, but out of all the things that could use a buff, hammers aren't really one of them. except for the aforementioned crappy skills.

zoozoc · Apr 02, 2006, 07:34 PM // 19:34

i always thought axe had the most dps, including skills of course.

Eet GnomeSmasher · Apr 02, 2006, 09:25 PM // 21:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patrograd

As has been said, plenty of top guilds use hammer warriors. instead of complaining about them, maybe get into observer mode and actually watch how they are supposed to be used. Maybe all these top guilds are packed with noobs who dont understand the game, but somehow I doubt that is the case.

And this is somehow proof that Hammers are somehow superior to axes and swords? Everyone knows that Elementalists are a bit subpar but some top guilds still use them. It doesnt mean that Elementalists dont need some help. Hell, Charles Ensign plays an Elementalist even though he's been very vocal about pushing for improvements for Elems. He knows that they still have their use but that they still need help.

The point we've been trying to make is that Hammers are a bit subpar compared to axes/swords considering you sacrifice a lot to use a hammer. No one said Hammers are useless or dont have their place here. Again you've missed the point. Now please stop with the "Top Guilds use it so therefore it can't possibly need improvement" argument.

The point is that Hammers should at least do more damage than the other two weapons considering that you give up much to use a two handed weapon with a much slower attack rate.

Go take a look at the Factions skills and you'll see a huge buff to swords and axes while Hammers get some pretty crappy skills.

JR · Apr 02, 2006, 09:47 PM // 21:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eet GnomeSmasher

And this is somehow proof that Hammers are somehow superior to axes and swords?

When did he say that made hammer warriors better? He simply stated that top guilds *do* use hammer warriors.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eet GnomeSmasher

Everyone knows that Elementalists are a bit subpar but some top guilds still use them.

Elemetalists subpar? Not a chance. They are brilliant support characters, which is the role that just about every top guild will use them in. As damage dealers? Well that is an entirely different subject.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eet GnomeSmasher

Again you've missed the point. Now please stop with the "Top Guilds use it so therefore it can't possibly need improvement" argument.

But that is a fairly viable argument. Top guilds will analyse the damage and effect from each weapon class to see which works best with their build. A lot still run hammer, therefore hammer must have some merit going for it. I know our last two builds containted a hammer Warrior.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eet GnomeSmasher

The point is that Hammers should at least do more damage than the other two weapons considering that you give up much to use a two handed weapon with a much slower attack rate.

Knockdown is insanely powerfull. That's all that needs to be said really.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eet GnomeSmasher

Go take a look at the Factions skills and you'll see a huge buff to swords and axes while Hammers get some pretty crappy skills.

None of the Warrior skills in factions particularly impressed me.

Rey Lentless · Apr 02, 2006, 10:34 PM // 22:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by zoozoc

i always thought axe had the most dps, including skills of course.

They do, but some people are apparently idiots. They see an equation involving no attack skills and no buffs, see 10% difference in DPS and think that's the end all arguement that it does more DPS. It doesn't.

Quote:

I read the thread. You are wrong.
If you deny it in the face of reality, with empirical stats Ensign and Top Guild members gave from months of high end GvG practice, it can't be helped.
Just try to smash a KDed guy under frenzy.
You will do more damage than your Eviscerate axe (D wound included with crusing blow).
Please test it yourself.

You're under the impression they spike better too? Wow. Good luck with that one.

Quote:

I was merely suggesting as you clearly have never played against a top class hammer warrior, and have absolutely no apparent idea of how they are supposed to be used, that you should go into observer mode and see one in action.

Quote:

Yes mesmers are better at pure disruption, but inbetween a mesmers disruption he isnt doing anything

Don't flatter yourself. I'd bet I've forgotten more about this game than you'll ever know. Hammer warriors are not even remotely as good at disruption as mesmers can be, and when they aren't disrupting.. you're highly overestimating the damage they do. I'm sorry that you play mesmers that sit around doing nothing, but that doesn't make hammer warriors better. You can keep watching your observer mode and copying everything you see.. I'll continue to think for myself.

Quote:

But that is a fairly viable argument. Top guilds will analyse the damage and effect from each weapon class to see which works best with their build. A lot still run hammer, therefore hammer must have some merit going for it. I know our last two builds containted a hammer Warrior.

Seems to be a large group of people who want to let other people form their opinions for them. This isn't splitting the atom, you probably don't need other people figuring it out for you.

Quote:

i think it's a little early to say that one skill (a ward, mind you), is going to stop knockdowns or make them less valuable. i just fail to see where people are coming from saying that hammers need an attack speed buff (and the guy that said they should match that of a sword or axe is insane).

I believe it will have a decent effect on how warriors are played, but that is a premature.. guess. We'll have to see how that plays out. I don't see hammers being able to adjust to any environment with a lesser importance on knockdowns. The adjustment would be.. not to use hammers. They should have something else going for them. Certainly shouldn't be buffed to 1.33, that is insane.. I proposed less than a 10% base attack increase to push their dps high enough, that it can still outperform axes and swords in dps (except situations that involve heavy buffs, which I think is ok) when considering skill damage.

icemonkey · Apr 02, 2006, 10:38 PM // 22:38

JR-
elementalists are subpar. Revise your statement, ether prodigy is an excellent support skill, and you ahve to be primary ele to have it. I was thinking about it agian last night while watching rifts GvG. I mean except for ether prodigy and speccing to 16 attribute theres almost no reason to run a primary ele. Honestly take away your heal party spamming ether prodigy skill and what have you got left? Something better played by a necro or mesmer. Elementalists are overall subpar but have a few combos that warrent their playing, namely that ether prodigy is top 1 or 2 e management in the game, especially for runners.

not to get off track or anything.
honestly, of the top three elites 2 are no attribute elites for the whole class.

JR · Apr 02, 2006, 11:17 PM // 23:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by icemonkey

JR-
elementalists are subpar. Revise your statement, ether prodigy is an excellent support skill, and you ahve to be primary ele to have it.

Subpar in an offensive role, brilliant in a support role. You certainly couldn't just describe them as "subpar" with any kind of accuracy. That was my point. And yes I agree, Ether Prodigy is the sole reason why they are so good as a support class.

Neo-LD · Apr 02, 2006, 11:39 PM // 23:39

Theres alot of "well it depends on the build" rhetoric going on in this thread. Thats great, but how about we make it a little more concrete. What criteria, exactly, make one type of warrior superior to others for any given build?

For general reference, the strengths of the varios warriors is accepted as:

Axes are best DPS. Axes are best spike. Axes are worst utility.
Swords are about as good at spike as Axe as spike. Swords have best utility.
Hammers are good have good pressure (high dps, knockdowns) Hammers have worst spike.

For example, take your standard 2 war 2 mes adrenospike. From obs mode, most guilds take sword/axe. Why is this the case? What about in degen/pressure builds? They arent as common anymore but they primarily used axe/hammer or sword/hammer. Why?

Eet GnomeSmasher · Apr 02, 2006, 11:47 PM // 23:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR-

Elemetalists subpar? Not a chance. They are brilliant support characters, which is the role that just about every top guild will use them in. As damage dealers? Well that is an entirely different subject.

You knew what I meant...but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt anyway. I meant subpar when it comes to damage as you stated. And I even referred to Ensign's crusade to improve Elementalist which is focused completely on improving their damage. And I even said that top guilds still use Elementalists because they still have their uses.

And again, No one is saying that Hammers dont have a use. But saying that top guilds use them so therefore they dont need any improvement is a poor argument.

DieInBasra · Apr 03, 2006, 12:07 AM // 00:07

It's a perfect arguement, because right now you're trying to compare apples and oranges. Hammers do less dps because they can knockdown. That's what they're meant to do. Eles do no dps and can't be used as a real pressure threat, that isn't what they're meant(read sold) to do. People have a choice between hammer, swords, and axes if they want to do a warrior. You don't have a choice if you want to power out HP's and spam blinding flash. Eles need improvement on damage skills if they want to be used as a pressure threat. That's differant then hammers, which are already a threat, and already good.

I've seen RenO vs Te and PnH vs Charr. All of them have a hammer warrior. iB got to #1 with a hammer. If it was really the case that hammers are subpar, they wouldn't be useing them.

Eet GnomeSmasher · Apr 03, 2006, 12:21 AM // 00:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by DieInBasra

It's a perfect arguement, because right now you're trying to compare apples and oranges. Hammers do less dps because they can knockdown. That's what they're meant to do. Eles do no dps and can't be used as a real pressure threat, that isn't what they're meant(read sold) to do. People have a choice between hammer, swords, and axes if they want to do a warrior. You don't have a choice if you want to power out HP's and spam blinding flash.

I'm watching RenO vs Te. both have a hammer warrior. iB got to #1 with a hammer. If it was really the case that hammers are subpar, they wouldn't be useing them.

*sighs* Again NO ONE is saying Hammers are useless. I prefer to use one myself actually...even knowing that I could do a lot more damage with axes. And yes it's still a poor argument to say that it doesnt need improvement because the top guilds use them.

So you're saying that it's balanced (against axes and swords) that hammers do less overall damage and have less defense (lack of shield and it's mods), less benefits from certain mods (zealous mod) to do knockdowns that take forever to charge up or drain all my adenaline?

Greedy Gus · Apr 03, 2006, 12:56 AM // 00:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neo-LD

For general reference, the strengths of the varios warriors is accepted as:

Hammers have worst spike.

Talk about rhetoric. Run the numbers, backbreaker + crushing blow is almost the exact same damage as eviscerate + executioners. Add in irresistable which is much better than penetrating blow. It's slightly slower due to attack rate, but it has a 4 second knockdown included.

Eet GnomeSmasher · Apr 03, 2006, 01:08 AM // 01:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greedy Gus

Talk about rhetoric. Run the numbers, backbreaker + crushing blow is almost the exact same damage as eviscerate + executioners. Add in irresistable which is much better than penetrating blow. It's slightly slower due to attack rate, but it has a 4 second knockdown included.

Youve got to be kidding me if you're saying Backbreaker + Crushing Blow is just as good as Eviscerate + Executioner's.

You can spike far more with the axe for one thing....I cant believe you're even debating that axes dont spike better.

Greedy Gus · Apr 03, 2006, 01:29 AM // 01:29

No joke. I'm talking a difference of less than 10 average damage between a backbreaker + crushing combo compared to eviscerate + executioners.

Frankly I consider a good hammer spike more dangerous than the axe spike because of the knockdown. Can the axe spike more often? Sure. That's the whole point, there are differences between the 3 weapons. Sword takes a long time to charge up final too, but it's a sick spike, especially when positioned after gash so you get an enormous single hit.

Calling hammer the unconditional worst spike weapon? I'm not gonna listen to that shit. It's all about perspective. Do you mean over an instantaneous timeframe, over about a second or two, or maybe over a 3-4 second frame to take into account a full knockdown? Are you thinking about spikes per minute and include frequency? Maybe you want to find the weapon that outputs the most damage in a 3 skill spike. It's not black and white.

zoozoc · Apr 03, 2006, 03:53 AM // 03:53

ok backreaker costs 10 adrenaline and crushing costs 5 energy, while axe the axe warriors skills are both 8 adrenaline and cost no energy, plus they do more dmg (the smallest amount of dmg helps with any spike). For spike, axe is much better, then hammer. Hammer is pretty good at doing combos (like devistating+heavy+crushing+irresistable) but energy is always and will always be a problem, especially if your running both crushing and irresistable.

If its a choice between axe or a hammer warrior for the spike, most ppl would choose axe, but having 1 or each is great, hammers are a good choice as a replacement for other warriors, but if its JUST for spike axe is better. Like someone said its compairing apples and oranges, one has greater dps the other has knockdowns.

glountz · Apr 03, 2006, 07:48 AM // 07:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rey Lentless

You're under the impression they spike better too? Wow. Good luck with that one.
.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neo-LD

Hammers are good have good pressure (high dps, knockdowns) Hammers have worst spike.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eet GnomeSmasher

Youve got to be kidding me if you're saying Backbreaker + Crushing Blow is just as good as Eviscerate + Executioner's.
You can spike far more with the axe for one thing....I cant believe you're even debating that axes dont spike better

Quote:

Originally Posted by zoozoc

If its a choice between axe or a hammer warrior for the spike, most ppl would choose axe, but having 1 or each is great, hammers are a good choice as a replacement for other warriors, but if its JUST for spike axe is better. Like someone said its compairing apples and oranges, one has greater dps the other has knockdowns.

Guys, for the last time, test it by yourself.
Also, the Frenzy factor is really central in this equation. As soon as Backbreaker is charged, launch frenzy and use Backbreaker-Crushing-even Mighty if you want. You'll see you won't do better with an axe.
Axes, still, can unleash their spike quite more often.
But consider that IAS stances increase seriously hammer's DPS and ability to spike, more than Axe/Sword ones.
I'm not saying here that hammers deals overall more damage than an axe, on 1 minute, due to the higher frequency of spikes from the axe compared to hammer's ones, I think its pretty equivalent and balanced. Hammers does higher raw DPS, rare but brutal spikes, Axes spike more often with lower raw DPS. I think that damage wise, Hammers and axes are slighly equivalent.
Except that hammers can KD, and gives a lot less defense.

Rey Lentless · Apr 03, 2006, 08:26 AM // 08:26

Um, you are aware that IAS works for axes and swords too right? You can have about 4 axe/sword attacks in the same time that you get off your backbreaker, crushing, mighty blow. If you still think those attacks won't add up to more damage, I'll do the math tomorrow sometime.

Did a quick estimate. Let's say 16/15 setup (being kind to hammers here), with your skill set up.

Axe going with eviscerate, executioner's, penetrating, axe rake (being kind here again).

Both have deep wounds, so that's left out.

250 hammer
274 axe

You could have a better skill setup here and widen this margin.

Greedy Gus · Apr 03, 2006, 09:25 AM // 09:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rey Lentless

Um, you are aware that IAS works for axes and swords too right? You can have about 4 axe/sword attacks in the same time that you get off your backbreaker, crushing, mighty blow. If you still think those attacks won't add up to more damage, I'll do the math tomorrow sometime.

Did a quick estimate. Let's say 16/15 setup (being kind to hammers here), with your skill set up.

Axe going with eviscerate, executioner's, penetrating, axe rake (being kind here again).

Both have deep wounds, so that's left out.

250 hammer
274 axe

You could have a better skill setup here and widen this margin.

Did you not read my post or did you just ignore it?

Quote:

Originally Posted by GreedyGus

It's all about perspective. Do you mean over an instantaneous timeframe, over about a second or two, or maybe over a 3-4 second frame to take into account a full knockdown? Are you thinking about spikes per minute and include frequency? Maybe you want to find the weapon that outputs the most damage in a 3 skill spike. It's not black and white.

It all depends on what way you're measuring. Sure, you can use almost 4 axe skills in the time that you can do 3 hammer ones, but that's also taking up more skill slots. I guarantee if you do 4 hammer skills vs. 4 axe skills, the hammer comes up on top. Or more relevant, 3 hammer skills vs. 3 axe skills due to skill slots. Maybe 3 hammer skills vs. 3 axe skills + one regular hit.

If you're looking for the most devastating instantaneous spike, it's eviscerate. If you want the most devastating single hit in the middle of a spike, it's a final thrust that triggers the deep wound from the previous gash. If you want the best spike frequency, you want an axe war with evis + exe. If you want kite prevention during the spike, you want the hammer war's KD; next best is evis + rake. If you want to get the most damage out of 3 attack skills that you have room for, you want backbreaker + crushing + irresistable/mighty.

There are a lot of options, and a lot of reasons to use each.

glountz · Apr 03, 2006, 10:12 AM // 10:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greedy Gus

. If you want kite prevention during the spike, you want the hammer war's KD; next best is evis + rake.

Yes, the kiting factor is also highly central. A kiting target will completely mitigate your axe/sword spike, forcing you to switch from frenzy to sprint/rush/Bull's charge, whereas the KD ensure you spiking a stationnary target and take the best out of frenzy.
As I said long ago in one post, best warrior team consist in a Backbreaker hammer+ Charge sword+Eviscerate axe guy. When KD is obtained on a target, the kiting factor is nullified for each warrior, thus leading in its quick death.